When logic erodes...

How does a debate become, or is reduced to off-topic personal attacks?
It happens when either or both sides have failed to use logic, facts, and rationality in a discussion. When a debater can no longer defend his view, he either resorts to personal attacks or concede. Let me tell you of a story of one of those who resort to name-calling because he could not concede.

I was involved in another Israel-Hezbolla discussion in a local forum for artists, because an eager guy wanted to engage in a debate. Remember the "Boycott Israel" forwarded message I got? Sadly, he used his space to present his point by attacking me personally and failed to deliver facts to back up his anger. Yes, he was angry, and he couldn't explain lucidly why. He got even nastier when I challenged his ideas and he couldn't come up with his own data to back them up.

Count how many times he labeled me as "absurd," and "sad," and implied several times how ignorant I am. Like a cornered dog who has nowhere else to go, Mr. Red Constantino just barks at all directions even if he knows he's toast.

Next time Mr. Red Constantino, leave you cry baby tendencies at home if you want to talk with grown-ups. It's really embarrassing.

Here is our forum discussion:
Mr. Red Constantino's replies in bold.
Entries are posted from down (the earliest) to up (the latest).

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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:44:11 +0800
From: "Michael Mirasol"
To: "Renato Redentor Constantino"
Subject: Re: [philiraqsolidarity] Re: [CINEMANILA] Palestinian Artists Call for a Cultural Boycott of Israel

Michael Mirasol wrote:
It's sarcastic retorts like this that make serious, level-headed discussion impossible on both sides of the debate. "Way to go" Mr. Constantino.

Yours Truly,
Michael Mirasol
The Flipcritichttp://www.flipcritic.net/

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On 8/11/06,
Renato Redentor Constantino <red_constantino@skydsl.com.ph> wrote:

Hello to Ken, first of all, and to Charisse. Work in India is preventing me from replying quickly.About the only thing so far that I find agreement with with Charisse isthat war this exchange ain't. War is when people die and the only thing that appears to have expired here is reason in Charisse's points.

I don't think I was being sarcastic when I wrote that Charisse was being absurd. I did mean it. I think the points Charisse made, and continue to make, are ridiculous. Regarding the latest reply, I confess it wasn'tjust sadness that it evoked but also giggling. Diversity of emotions is welcome.

Charisse: "If Hezbolla and their hero Nasrallah is so brave, why is Nasrallah hiding deep in their bunker networks and then barkingapocalyptic threats on TV?"And the brave Israeli pilots and artillery officers and tank drivers arebelly-dancing in their underwear openly on fields with the Red Cross insignia painted on their bellies.

Charrise: "Why are there still so many women and children in apartmentsand homes when IDF has already sent advance warnings that civiliansshould leave the area, working on the assumption, if you're not a Hezbolla fighter, you should not be there."
Brilliant Charisse.

Charisse: "Prior to the 1967 6-day war, Gaza was under Egypt and WestBack was under Jordan, the Golan and Sheeba under Syria. When the United Arab League (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia) amassed troops,mobilized, and cut off Israeli maritime rights in Tiran, and united forthe first time to attack ISrael, what in the world was Israel going to do?"
Right. And what in the world was Israel doing there in the first place?

Charisse: "If the Palestinians were dispossesed, they were dispossesedbecause their corrupt and megalomaniac government hated the Zionists more than they cared about the lives of their people."Oh man! That's right! The Palestinians -- you can never rely on them.They grabbed Palestine and yet they can't even be trusted to sustain the dispossession of their own people. Superb reasoning Charisse!

Charisse: "Could you blame Israel if they find that hard to believe andthey would not risk their tiny population after 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973,1982....etc."Of course not! "Etc"! That's right Charisse! We can't blame Israel for anything. I wish I had conversed with you years before. Now I understand.

Charisse: "Clean up your backyards; leave the players alone."
Ah, eh, that's what Israel's been doing -- cleaning up their backyard and the backyard of many others -- as in. And they've largely asked that they be left alone in their clean up duties.

Charisse: "extremist groups like Hamas and Hezbolla will never achievetheir purpose of getting Israel to "liberate" Palestinians with their own brand of "convincing."
Aba that's right! Only the Israeli brand can convince the Palestinians-- now why didn't I think of that?

Charisse: "The Lebanese government, who officially do not sanction the separatists Hezbolla in any of their action, now wants more than athousand prisoners in exchange for Israel's 2 kidnapped soldiers, theSheeba farm, and the map of the land mines."
Ikaw naman, why do you have to reveal naman that Israel has over a thousand Lebanese prisoners. Stop na. Baka you will also reveal how manychildren and women Palestinians are in Israeli jails huy. Wag na ha. Ialso promise never ever ever to ask you why Israel has so many of those prisoners. The Arabs kasi eh, they're so unfair eh. They have alreadybeen given prison lodgins for free tapos complain complain pa! The nerve!

Charisse: "Sure, they had 6 years since Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon to do just that, and look where they are now." And so for whatreason was Hezbollah created again? Ah ya! Sorry, I forgot, the foundingo rganizational constitution says "to eat our own children." Bad bad bad sila. Oo nga. I forgot, sorry.

Charisse: "I think the disproportinate response question is now quiteproportionate. What is not proportionate is the death toll."
Aba! Excellent logic! I am deeply impressed.

Charisse: "I find it disturbing that Nasralla is now seen as a hero tomost of the Arab world--regardless of bringing war to Lebanon."
See???

Everyone, listen to Charisse kasi. Hezbollah is making war on Lebanon. Israel is bringing peace to Lebanon. Please, please, everyone,pay attention huy!.

Charisse: "[W]hen I call a group extremist, its usually for groups whocan sacrifice their civilians and their enemy's civilians to carry out a belief and an ideology.... I 100% believe that they [Hezbollah] do andthey will sacrifice their women and children in the name of so-calledprotecting their women and children.... [D]oes Israel fall in [the]category [of extremism]? No."

This is sad Charisse. You are sad. Couldn't giggle on this one

(Goodness, This Mr. Red Constantino is a really nasty piece of bitter pill huh? He likes using my name all the time, as if it would make his point any smarter or coherent.)
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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:34:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: ME
Subject: Re: [philiraqsolidarity] Re: [CINEMANILA] Palestinian Artists Call for a Cultural Boycott of Israel
To: "Renato Redentor Constantino"

Hello Red,

Thank you for you insight, and unfortunately, I am well and trully aware just how far this conflict has began, long before the actual July kidnappings of Israeli soldiers in Gaza and Southern Lebanon.

1.) You ask who started the conflict? Why, lets not even go back to the Palestinian dispossessions of 1948 and 1967. Let us start with something more recent, but much earlier than the July 12 date that you cite, regarding deliberate violations of sovereignty and kidnapping:
If we go through this debate, I truly doubt there would be any end because this comes down to the pre-1967 Palestinian territories that was occupied before the '67 six-day war. Then again, if we go far back on the Palestinian Mandate by the British, then there would even be more arguments because the Arabs and Jews each made their own violations.
There have been killings and retalions on both sides of the Lebanese border even after Israel withdrew from most of Southern Lebanon, the only difference from the usual engagement is that Israel responded with a significantly bigger retaliation this time, which Hezbollah did not anticipate. Nasrallah expected prisoner trade once again, like they usually did before this conflict began.

2.) True or false: Muslims of the Shia faith account for 40 percent of Lebanon's population? And what does Hizbollah mean -- Army of God or Party of God? Is it one among Lebanon's many political organizations, albeit a rooted, popular one, or is Hizbollah the name of the Lebanese Army?

Yes, and its also true that 40% of the population are Sunnis, and the rest are Christians, and Druze. Sunnis and Shi'ite Muslims have a long history of conflict. Hezbollah concentration is in the economically deprived South, populated mostly of Shi'ites. Does Hezbollah respresent the Sunnis, Christians, and Druze? When they brought their Southern conflict to the doorsteps of Beirut compose of a hetergenous ethnic and religious population, did they think they represented the people of Lebanon?

3.) You throw the word "unfair" in interesting ways. Tell us, which represents unfair: spreading the word about artists calling for a cultural boycott, or this interesting tally: Number of Lebanese slaughtered by Israel so far -- an absurdly low count of 509 civilians, 29 Lebanese soldiers and 53 Hizbollah fighters. Number of Israeli soldiers killed -- 57; number of civilians killed, 36. Please, tell us, where exactly do you get your dictionaries? (I think fresh air to calm your nerves is more important than a dictionary right now)

Once again, the argument of proportionate response. UN is calling for a humanitarian war, and states Israel is violating International humanitarian law. Humanitarian war? Isn't that an oxymoron? Do you actually think Israel cannot just target the Hezbolla hideouts and carpet bomb the locations? But Hezbolla locations are civilian locations, thus ground forces had to be deployed, and yes, risking more Israeli deaths. It is done, and has to be done because the international community is crying "disproportionate response!" Honestly, if our insurgents attacked a neighboring country and they lived among us civilians, do you realistically believe that the other country will just send their ground troops to finish off the insurgents and can leave 100% the civilians untouched?

4.) When you echo Egeland's whine that Hizbollah is "cowardly blending" with a population that apparently they live with and belong to, I take you are suggesting instead that Hizbollah members should courageously stand on an open field, paint bright red bullseyes on their chests and wave wildly as Israeli war planes approach so they can take the American-made missiles right in the middle of their chests? They may just do so you know, if you can convince the brave Israeli pilots hiding inside their lofty war planes to do the same so that the Katyushas can be aimed without difficulty at their rib cages.

Israelis are at the ground. Even if you watch anti-Israeli BBC, it shows Israeli ground troops have swelled and engaged guerilla warfare with the Hezbollas. And where did you ever get the idea that the katyushas were directed at Israeli military targets? Even if IDF wore a shirt with the Star of David and laid themselves on the ground, the katyusha rockets will fly over them because the targets are civilians. Katyushas as indiscrimately aimed at any location In Northen Israel, civilian locations.

From your argument, it seems ok to blend with the civilians, hide in their homes, build networks and bunkers within public building and apartments, but Israelis are not allowed to target these locations by air because there are civilians with the Hezbollah? Hezbollah forces are allowed to use whatever tactics needed to win, but with Israel, because we presume that as western country and operating under western guidelines, can only respond based on the dictates of their enemies battle tactic? Hezbollah does ground war, so Israel has to do ground war exclusively. If Hezbollah starts firing bigger missiles, that's the only time Israel is allowed to fire their missiles? Basically, they'll be handcuffed to act on Hezbollah's war strategy.
I wonder once again, if any country at war would actually operate that way? Lets assume this was North Korea and SOuth Korea, would SOuth Korea restrain itself when they are more militarily capable than the North and would only engage the North in a battle that is dictated by the North. North fires katyushas and engage the troops in ground battle along the border, and the South will just send their ground troops even if they can target their enemies' stronghold from air? I honestly don't think that's a realistic expectation.

Lastly, I have nothing against your point of view, regardless of our differences, but your obvious anger is more disconcerting. We are not even a Lebanese and an Israeli, and already it seems automatic to attack instead of engaging in a dialogue without sarcasms and put downs. This makes me imagine just how difficult a peace process can be achieved with the actual people involved.
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Renato Redentor Constantino wrote:

Dear Charisse,

Please ask yourself a few questions:1. You throw the word "unfair" in interesting ways. Tell us, which represents unfair: spreading the word about artists calling for a cultural boycott, or this interesting tally: Number of Lebanese slaughtered by Israel so far -- an absurdly low count of 509 civilians, 29 Lebanese soldiers and 53 Hizbollah fighters. Number of Israeli soldiers killed -- 57; number of civilians killed, 36. Please, tell us, where exactly do you get your dictionaries?

2. When you echo Egeland's whine that Hizbollah is "cowardly blending" with a population that apparently they live with and belong to, I take you are suggesting instead that Hizbollah members should courageously stand on an open field, paint bright red bullseyes on their chests and wave wildly as Israeli war planes approach so they can take the American-made missiles right in the middle of their chests? They may just do so you know, if you can convince the brave Israeli pilots hiding inside their lofty war planes to do the same so that the Katyushas can be aimed without difficulty at their rib cages.

3. When soldiers of Israel go to their homes and neighborhoods, will they find their spouse and children and other members of their family there? If you answer yes, as any rational person would, can you also tell us if, by returning to their homes the Israeli soldiers are also "cowardly blending" into the population?

4. . True or false: Muslims of the Shia faith account for 40 percent of Lebanon's population? And what does Hizbollah mean -- Army of God or Party of God? Is it one among Lebanon's many political organizations, albeit a rooted, popular one, or is Hizbollah the name of the Lebanese Army?5. You ask who started the conflict? Why, lets not even go back to the Palestinian dispossessions of 1948 and 1967. Let us start with something more recent, but much earlier than the July 12 date that you cite, regarding deliberate violations of sovereignty and kidnapping:In southern Lebanon, on July 28, 1989 Sheikh Abdul Kareem Obeid was kidnapped by Israeli commandos. On May 12, 1994, Israel's agents kidnapped Mustafa Dirani. The two were held by Israel without trial for years, along with about 20 other Lebanese, as "negotiating chips." Sound familiar? Let us be more explicit. Let us use the Obeid kidnap -- as explained by the very website of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs -- as an echo of the avowed motivation of the Hezbollah regarding its July 12 kidnap operation: "Israel had hoped to use the sheikh as a card to affect an exchange of prisoners and hostages in return for all Shiites held by it."Apparently, said Tel Aviv University professor Ze'ev Maoz, "that which is permissible to [Israel] is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah."Did Hezbollah cross on July 12 a border recognized by the international community? Looks like it. Border violations are border violations. And since the time Israel was chased out of Lebanon in 2000, the Israeli air force has conducted daily surveillance sorties in Lebanese airspace.

I cited the instances above in an essay which came out in August 3 in in the Philippine paper, Business Mirror. It is a tiny, tiny piece of a gigantic picture that you are missing. Get more of those shards of truth Charisse, and just maybe you'll end up asking more folks to do more than just sign petitions such as these.

red